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Taking out INS layers from Map Rotation
#1
While I personally don't mind INS (finding/destroying caches), every map switch to that game mode I've seen so far has lead to a severe depop, or in some cases, to a dead server. It's especially prevalent after past around 8pm EST (and no one likes a early death for our servers). Sometimes it'll repop towards the end of the game or after map switch, but I'm not seeing this happen on any other map/layer, so I'm assuming INS is the case.

Just my suggestions to Muff, but wanted to open it up on here to see how everyone else feels about it.
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#2
I agree. Multiple times the server has gone from almost full to half empty and then it just dies out.

People hate INS maps. The proof speaks for itself, why keep something that kills servers all the time.
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#3
Well you got a point but it's depends on the rotation... It's depends on when you put the map on the rotation because I love this mod specially when you have a team that know how to play it.. Superior and rush attack all for the close objective! I think this mod should stay on but only in good place on the rotation when the server is on its best. Smile
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#4
Maybe this is true at odd hours, but I played in whitelist 1 this past Sunday around 6pm Central and it was poppin' during an INS round. Seemed like half the server was whitlisted players. I think whitelist 2 was even over 50% pop'ed at the time.
Squawk!
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#5
The past few weeks for the rounds I've played in, the server tends to drop to half no matter the map. People get tired and need a break and whatnot. Usually tends to become full again. This is what I've been noticing for the few rounds I've played. Not saying you are wrong or right but I've noticed it happens not just on INS layers.
Apparently, you're supposed to put something important here that signifies something special to you.
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#6
(08-16-2017, 06:05 PM)Zabari Wrote: Well you got a point but it's depends on the rotation... It's depends on when you put the map on the rotation because I love this mod specially when you have a team that know how to play it.. Superior and rush attack all for the close objective! I think this mod should stay on but only in good place on the rotation when the server is on its best. Smile

Zabari, I agree with you in that it depends on the time of day, and where it is in the rotation (i.e. it's a long game mode and people might get tired out depending on what they just played or what time it is, hence leaving, OR it might not be a problem at all because it's on a Saturday afternoon and everyone has time). I can't say for certain whether the prior maps before each INS map in the rotations are the problem, but I will say that at this point, since we can't just change map rotation unless the server resets, it would be to either take it out or leave it. I suppose one method around that would be to have a staff/admin roll to the next map, based upon how late it is, how many people there are in the server (to gauge), and announce that before the end of the game when everyone starts to leave; however, that'd require a staff/admin on at all times and can see that just getting very subjective and overwhelming to control.

(08-16-2017, 06:41 PM)Birdperson1 Wrote: Maybe this is true at odd hours, but I played in whitelist 1 this past Sunday around 6pm Central and it was poppin' during an INS round. Seemed like half the server was whitlisted players. I think whitelist 2 was even over 50% pop'ed at the time.

I think I was there. If I recall, that's when Karma was playing, which I don't really count since the servers are pretty much always full when he's in (ex. yesterday in 12-15 person queue). Even yesterday or the day before, the server was full in INS when he was there, but again, I think the server pop is more attributed to him playing than the map really. Exact opposite tends to happen (server severely depops) when he leaves too. (Nothing against you, Karma)

Keep in mind I've played pretty consistently for the past week or two now, and have seen this happen numerous times to see if it was actually the INS map or not. While I think there are definitely exceptions (as I mentioned, if maybe Karma's on, if it's daytime during the weekend or sometimes weekdays), overall it seems feasible that the problem is stemming from (most) people disliking the map mode. Just my thoughts and observations.
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#7
Personally, I think it's just a time of day thing.

I've seen the server depop by 9pm PST regardless of map. I don't think INS has anything to do with it really, I think its fun, action tends to be higher.

Few things I noticed the last few days:

Server has been depop'd once Karma leaves, if he's playing after 7pm EST or so. It had nothing to do with the map. 

Also, I noticed the teams constantly stacked in Karma's favor. This is in no way his fault. Dude has a decent fan base (I myself am a fan), however I noticed that the moment the teams became within 1 or 2, someone would leave our team to join his. Constantly starting games down 2 guys (not that bad), but by the end of the match it was 41v33. This carried over to the next round. 

Some ideas I have to fix this: 
  • Have Karma switch teams after every game - maybe him letting people know will stop them from switching late match
  • I was also told that he will consider AFKing for a few rounds when done, this might help
I was playing with Jack last night around 9pm PST (12 EST) with 16 in the server, asked him to send a seeding message (I hardly see seeding messages past 5pm PST). He did it around 9-930 PST, server filled up.

So maybe we just need more seeding messages later in the night. I know people dont like the notifications, but they are targeted to @here. Phones have Do Not Disturb modes on them as well to prevent any notification (except a call from someone on your approved list). Hopefully last night wasn't an outlier, but the server stayed pop'd for a decent time due to the late night seeding message.

Regarding INS, I don't think it's a big issue. The biggest issues for depop are just ANY map ending and it being late. With rounds sometimes lasting 45 min - 1.5 hours, people get tired and dont want to go through it again. Also, if one team is steam rolling, thats a good way for the server to depop as well. I noticed this last night when the majority of Ops guys were on the same team with Karma.

These are just suggestions, love playing on SquadOps servers - just wish they didnt depop so fast since I'm west coast.

Another thing to consider, I really haven't seen much of a change to when it depops after new rotation. It would depop before 9-11pm PST before the new rotation.
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#8
(08-16-2017, 07:35 PM)SilentDeath Wrote: Personally, I think it's just a time of day thing.

I've seen the server depop by 9pm PST regardless of map. I don't think INS has anything to do with it really, I think its fun, action tends to be higher.

Few things I noticed the last few days:

Server has been depop'd once Karma leaves, if he's playing after 7pm EST or so. It had nothing to do with the map. 

Also, I noticed the teams constantly stacked in Karma's favor. This is in no way his fault. Dude has a decent fan base (I myself am a fan), however I noticed that the moment the teams became within 1 or 2, someone would leave our team to join his. Constantly starting games down 2 guys (not that bad), but by the end of the match it was 41v33. This carried over to the next round. 

Some ideas I have to fix this: 
  • Have Karma switch teams after every game - maybe him letting people know will stop them from switching late match
  • I was also told that he will consider AFKing for a few rounds when done, this might help
I was playing with Jack last night around 9pm PST (12 EST) with 16 in the server, asked him to send a seeding message (I hardly see seeding messages past 5pm PST). He did it around 9-930 PST, server filled up.

So maybe we just need more seeding messages later in the night. I know people dont like the notifications, but they are targeted to @here. Phones have Do Not Disturb modes on them as well to prevent any notification (except a call from someone on your approved list). Hopefully last night wasn't an outlier, but the server stayed pop'd for a decent time due to the late night seeding message.

Regarding INS, I don't think it's a big issue. The biggest issues for depop are just ANY map ending and it being late. With rounds sometimes lasting 45 min - 1.5 hours, people get tired and dont want to go through it again. Also, if one team is steam rolling, thats a good way for the server to depop as well. I noticed this last night when the majority of Ops guys were on the same team with Karma.

These are just suggestions, love playing on SquadOps servers - just wish they didnt depop so fast since I'm west coast.

Another thing to consider, I really haven't seen much of a change to when it depops after new rotation. It would depop before 9-11pm PST before the new rotation.

Thanks for the feedback (along with everyone else). I think you mentioned a few different issues, so I'll try to break my responses down:

1) In regards to INS I do agree that time of day has a lot to do with it, just like any other map. My speculation was it was more severe for the INS maps when it happens though, as in when the server usually dies out 12am/1am EST normally for me, it would instead start dying out earlier if it switched to an INS map past 8pm EST, for example. I wish there was some way to automatically log time, number of players, map, etc. so we could see if that was statistically valid or not, but I'm definitely not about to go through the process of manually logging and acquiring sample data to validate that (hence this forum post). But maybe *A* solution could be to simply roll the map with a staff/admin on during the nighttime, like we did last night, and that way we can keep it in the rotation and play it without any real difference in player base during the day time or weekends.

2) I did mention a bit earlier about the whole Karma leaving thing too, and while it's not his fault at all, it could potentially be a recurring problem. If it does continue to happen, it might be a separate issue that might need to be brought up. Maybe the AFK thing will help though, but that's ultimately his choice.

3) The stacking problem happens regardless of if it's Karma or not. We get clans and certain people that will make the same thing happen. I think the solution for that would be to enforce it upon ourselves, as a Squad Ops community, and even more so as Regs or above with the [Ops] tag, to switch teams to balance when necessary (hell, it's even a Server Rule in the ReadMe). In your context, I'm not sure if Karma switching teams would do any good, since people would simply switch teams and stack up again on the other side, but that's just my 2 cents.

4) Do you remember how long the server was up for after Jack did the announcement last night? I remember the last map when there was only 16 in the server was in Narva, right before I was about to head to sleep and I did see the server fill up too. If it seems like we can keep it filled for a long time, it could be worth it, if it's a consistent pop and our staff/admins decide so. Regardless, this could probably be its own separate issue that's suggested.
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#9
(08-16-2017, 08:37 PM)Demind41 Wrote: 1) In regards to INS I do agree that time of day has a lot to do with it, just like any other map. My speculation was it was more severe for the INS maps when it happens though, as in when the server usually dies out 12am/1am EST normally for me, it would instead start dying out earlier if it switched to an INS map past 8pm EST, for example. I wish there was some way to automatically log time, number of players, map, etc. so we could see if that was statistically valid or not, but I'm definitely not about to go through the process of manually logging and acquiring sample data to validate that (hence this forum post). But maybe *A* solution could be to simply roll the map with a staff/admin on during the nighttime, like we did last night, and that way we can keep it in the rotation and play it without any real difference in player base during the day time or weekends.


I know that it is possible for Barton to eventually add a server rotation that kicks in at a certain time (a "night rotation"). It just requires dev work. He said it's possible when I asked the question during last community meeting.

As far as logging, I know Barton has said he can see who's joining (in the moment), what password they entered and such. So obviously there is data about players being logged (probably not stored).

As a developer, I can't imagine there NOT being a way to log this and store it - if the data is flowing, then I'm pretty certain there's a way to store it without too much developer work. I'm sure it's possible to get data on when and what map a server reached a population less than X. Then you just need someone savvy with numbers and data to use an excel sheet and see what the data says. 

All of this requires work, and with v2 coming out I doubt they have the time right now. But yes, I'm pretty certain you can create rules that log certain events(ex: if players hit <20, then log the map and time) and store it into a database. No need to manually log it or manually watch it.


(08-16-2017, 08:37 PM)Demind41 Wrote: 4) Do you remember how long the server was up for after Jack did the announcement last night? I remember the last map when there was only 16 in the server was in Narva, right before I was about to head to sleep and I did see the server fill up too. If it seems like we can keep it filled for a long time, it could be worth it, if it's a consistent pop and our staff/admins decide so. Regardless, this could probably be its own separate issue that's suggested.

Asked Jack around 9:30 PM PST on Narva with about 16 people left "Would love a seeding announcement, but it's late for east coast." He did it anyways, we popped it pretty fast to 70+ within 15-30 minutes. Another Ops guy then rolled the map to Al Basrah since it was late  and it hadn't fully popped yet. We played Al Basrah, then Chora with (55-70 people). So it was a good 2+ hours. Due to the 1st map change, the next map after Chora was Al Basrah (same layer, again). Jack asked people if we wanted a roll since we played it 2 layers ago, majority said yes, we rolled, and server died when it went to Gorodok. Majority left the moment Gorodok loaded up. I checked about 1 hour after that and there were still 20-30 playing 1 hour after the Gorodok incident.

So it seemed it was pretty popped for a good 2-3  hours (~1130p-1230a pst) before the re-roll, which was needed since the first map switch occurred. Who knows how long it would have lasted if we stayed on Basrah again. But I definitely think that you should run an experiment of using Seeding announcement later at night once it first dies. Plenty of people came in within 5 mins and AFKed to help out.

With a community of over 3,000 (iirc), I really don't think the late night seeding message was a freak event - I think late night seeding announcements could keep the server popped til at least Midnight PST.

Sorry for long posts, just trying to be as descriptive as possible - probably a bit too much info.
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#10
(08-16-2017, 06:47 PM)Demind41 Wrote:
(08-16-2017, 06:05 PM)Zabari Wrote: Well you got a point but it's depends on the rotation... It's depends on when you put the map on the rotation because I love this mod specially when you have a team that know how to play it.. Superior and rush attack all for the close objective!  I think this mod should stay on but only in good place on the rotation when the server is on its best. Smile

Zabari, I agree with you in that it depends on the time of day, and where it is in the rotation (i.e. it's a long game mode and people might get tired out depending on what they just played or what time it is, hence leaving, OR it might not be a problem at all because it's on a Saturday afternoon and everyone has time). I can't say for certain whether the prior maps before each INS map in the rotations are the problem, but I will say that at this point, since we can't just change map rotation unless the server resets, it would be to either take it out or leave it. I suppose one method around that would be to have a staff/admin roll to the next map, based upon how late it is, how many people there are in the server (to gauge), and announce that before the end of the game when everyone starts to leave; however, that'd require a staff/admin on at all times and can see that just getting very subjective and overwhelming to control.

Well I think it's a good idea to start pronouncing the next map at the last 10 min of the game every 5 min so people will know. And change it to the last map in the rotation so the server will be full for a while and If people will leave the next map will be the seeding map that we all like "sumari" Smile
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